EddieDean

I feel like that’s covered well enough by his following line, perhaps with a tweak:

“What are you most afraid of?”
“Myself…”
“Because you’re a Palpatine? Some things are stronger than blood.”
“Final lesson. Rey… Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t overcome Palpatine, will mean the end of the Jedi, and the light. Palpatine is beyond redemption - he must be destroyed. There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

(Though I don’t know if any of this is said onscreen by Luke, in which case this may be a non-starter. Still, I think it’s clear enough from the second part that he’s directing her to do that.)

Fair! Apologies for the sidetrack!

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I like that new line. Anything that makes things more vague is fine by me.

Sorry, which one are you referencing here?

Jar Jar Bricks said:

But we aren’t necessarily talking about Rey’s blood specifically, is the thing. I’m shifting the meaning of the lesson to be that, for all the power in the Skywalker bloodline and Rey’s, it was all for naught because their spirits weren’t strong enough to overcome the dark inclinations of the Force. Leia saw somebody who would have the spirit to do such a thing.

I’m comfortable with that, I guess I’m just cautious about having Luke explicitly claim ‘The Force made us, to destory him’ because it’s explicit about the Force being behind them, and explicit about its will. I don’t think we should say onscreen ‘The Force wants Palpatine dead’.

It’s also cool if what Luke tells Rey to do is what she tells Palpatine (“I’ve come to end you”). Then Palpatine nonchalantly is like - “Yeah, that’s what I always wanted.” It immediately dispels the pep talk that he gave her, and returns the stakes to the scene.

That’s also a good call. It kind of ends up that everyone’s a little wrong and a little right - Kylo, Rey, and Luke, and the solution comes from them all.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I’m glad you recognize the comedy and irony in it as well. I touched on that quite a while ago on this page. I love the idea that Palpatine thought he has such a mastery of the Force that he could influence its own creations to serve his own will. That didn’t work out well for him the first time, yet he tries it again! Really funny stuff.

Yeah. Perhaps Palpatine would have won if he’d only realised that Rey/Kylo were his joint heir, and sat them on a double-width throne together. Perhaps again it’s the Will of the Force getting one over on Palpatine - it knows the Sith are insistent on one master/one apprentice, so it made one that is two so the Sith would never think to permit the coexistence of both, and set up a situation where his spirit wouldn’t be able to inhabit the heir since it’s, y’know, two bodies.

I think it’s generally best to leave the Will of the Force open to interpretation, and the idea of ‘destiny’ as it pertains to Rey ambiguous as to whether it’s a destiny from Palpatine or the Force directly.

Back on Luke, perhaps we can have it both ways elegantly again:
“What are you most afraid of?”
“Myself…”
“Because you’re a Palpatine? Did you forget my own father was Darth Vader?” (said in an almost cheeky, lightly teasing tone)
-or-
“Because you’re a Palpatine? You’re talking to the son of Vader [right now].” (said with amusement)
“Final lesson. Rey… Some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t face Palpatine, will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost. There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

This way Luke’s still referencing his own explicit dark bloodline, with the link from Vader to Palpatine left to the viewer’s memory. And it’s still relevant - he’s showing the best person to advise on ‘my blood is scary’.

Glad you like it. It’s kind of like Palpatine’s trying to pick his own ‘Chosen One’ as he did before, this time from two candidates, not realising that they’re one together, and it’s the Rey-Kylo ‘unit’ that can defeat him (and ultimately, actually, empower him, because Dyads of your own creations are delicious). Once again, Palpatine’s the master manipulator but the Will of the Force has the last laugh.

Plus, Kylo’s right about Rey, and right about what they can achieve. But if they’re both the same yinyang - Kylo with light in his dark, and Rey with dark in her light (or the other way around), it leaves room for them to achieve some kind of viable balance. It also adds a bit more jeopardy to Rey’s final fight - facing Palpatine alone (a very Luke thing to do) isn’t going to work here - but then Kylo shows up after all, his spirit more pure. And sure, Rey and the Jedi destroy Palpatine (great light destroys great dark), but Kylo was still a key part of that process.

I feel, on this point, that we have to pick a side between Palpatine creating Rey/Kylo and the Force creating them. In the canon, the Force is a cosmic power with a will, but darksiders are seen as wielding the Force for selfish ends in spite of that will. So Palpatine manipulating the Force to create life is a very darksider thing to do.

If we look at Anakin’s story, clearly the Jedi had a Chosen One prophecy that the force might create some super-Jedi to bring balance, but we know from implication/word of Lucas that Palpatine created Anakin. It’s a reasonable interpretation to assume Palps did that not just for an heir/apprentice, but because it would set up his creation to appear as the Chosen One and trick the Jedi as it did. And perhaps he still is the Chosen One - the Mortis episodes of TCW (made by Lucas’ choice) do make that more explicit, and he does kinda bring balance. But I think that case is more unique to specifically Anakin/Vader, and may have been what the Chosen One prophecy meant all along - Will of the Force + Palpatine manipulation = haha, still Will of the Force.

But we don’t, in canon, have any such implication of any prophecy about Rey. In the current canon she’s a Force Awakened daughter of Palpatine’s non-force-sensitive hybrid clone son, who becomes one of a Dyad of ‘one light/one dark’ with Kylo Ren. And replacing some of that with ‘Force Awakened creation of Palpatine’ I don’t think brings us any closer to a Chosen One.

We could, I suppose, argue that the Rey/Kylo Dyad is a kind of ‘Chosen One’ together (thouch I’d avoid using the words ‘Chosen One’), and imply that Rey/Kylo are essentially a two-person Vader, a manipulated creation of Palpatine that, nevertheless, is going to enact the will of the force to bring balance. And that’s kind of cool - if probably far too convoluted to put onscreen.

But we could lean into that idea more elegantly:

“Rey, I learned the rest of our story.”
“Tell me.”
"Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then you. Both were once his chosen heir. You… are a rightful Palpatine.”
"Now, the Emperor wants us to fight each other, so that the strongest of us can inherit the throne. But he doesn’t realise that we are one, Rey… Bonded in spirit by the raw power of the Force. We are strong enough to end him and the Sith, and create a new order, together…”

Ah, OK. I think that’s just fine. I wouldn’t replace ‘he wanted her alive’, since he did, and evidently either the Ochi thing was going to work out for him or the Force Awakening would expose her. That’s plenty - Ochi can just be a hunter as he currently is, who tried but failed to find Rey (and had a key to Palpatine). I wouldn’t worry about the ship also being seen in TFA - it’s so brief, it barely matters, and can be handwaved away as another ship so easily if people care.

Oh and also, what did you think of this little change:

“What are you most afraid of?”
“Myself…”
“Because you’re a Palpatine? His power runs in my bloodline too.”
“Final lesson. Rey… Some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t face Palpatine, will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost. There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

I think that just fits perfectly with what surrounds it, enhances Kylo’s relevance (which also works with your two-hosts-must-fight intent), and ties into both Leia’s rejection and Palpatine’s later recalling that the throne is “in her blood”.

That works. With this as it stands, what’s the current status of the storyline around Ochi’s ship? Are we using what’s originally in the film, or making any changes there? I haven’t kept up with Ochi/D-O discourse, but it definitely feels right that it’s not mentioned in any of the conversations above.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I don’t think Hal will be particularly interested in using AI voices to this extent for his personal projects. Perhaps at least until we see how good it sounds now 😉

Ah, apologies all if that’s the case, I must have missed him making that call! I had the impression this was all for a possible v5.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Again, my only worry is the scene between Kylo and Palps we positioned before Endor wherein Palpatine is just straight up telling him to kill her again. Plus, I really like the idea that Palpatine is equally fine with either Kylo or Rey to take the throne. It makes what he says to Kylo in the intro genuine. It also allows whatever happens between Rey and Kylo to still be a part of his plan. We mention the fact they share the same fate earlier, we don’t want to take Kylo entirely off the table immediately after saying that.

If you think back to TLJ, Snoke isn’t giving Rey a fair chance whatsoever. He’s literally holding her in place and forcing Kylo to kill her. I just have a hard time buying that was something Palpatine intended to be a “challenge” for Rey to overcome and become more powerful. It’s only because of Kylo’s interest in her that she lives. They don’t conflict with each other, they fight as one. This is clearly not what Palpatine would want.

OK, yeah, all good points. And then I guess the implication is that on Endor she ‘defeats’ him for good, proving her worthiness?

Just updated a compiled version to post on the Ascendent thread, copied here:

“Palpatine wants me to fight you.”
“Serving another master?”
“No. I have other plans…”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it… I needed you to see it… who you are. The dark side is your birthright. Rey…”
"You’re lying.”
“You were right about your parents, Rey. They were nobody. And nobody conceived you.”
“Don’t!”
“You’re so much like my grandfather. So like Darth Vader…”
“I don’t want this!”
“…destined for power.”
“No!”
“You’ve seen it, haven’t you?”

(Rey sees the vision of herself on the Sith throne)

“Luke saw the same fate in me. But together, we can resist that fate.”
“Stop talking.”
“I’m the only one who truly knows you.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“When we first fought, in the forest, you reached out for the darkness inside you. You exposed yourself to Palpatine, and set yourself on the path toward your destiny… just as he’d intended…”

(Visions of Rey beating Kylo on Starkiller, falling into the dark cave, etc.)

“No!”

(A pedestal shatters and the mask of Vader falls to the ground)

“So that’s where you are.”
“Our paths have always been intertwined."
“No…”
"I’ll come tell you why.”

“Rey, I learned the rest of our story.”
“Tell me.”
"Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then you. Both were once his chosen heir. You… are a rightful Palpatine.”
"Now, the Emperor wants us to fight each other, so you can reach your full potential and claim the throne. But he doesn’t know how much our conflicts strengthen our connection, Rey… a bond, not of blood, but of raw power in the Force. We can end him and the Sith, and create a new order, together…”

“What are you most afraid of?”
“Myself…”
“Because you’re a Palpatine? His power runs in my bloodline too.”
“Final lesson. Rey… Some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t face Palpatine, will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost. There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

“Leia’s saber.”
“She was quick to learn in our training. But Leia felt that her passionate nature would make the easy path to power too tempting for her. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day it would be picked up again by someone with the spirit to face that darkness.”

“Long have I waited… I never wanted you dead. I wanted you here, Empress Palpatine. You will take the throne. It is your birthright to rule here. It is in your blood.”
“I haven’t come to lead the Sith. I’ve come to end them.”
“As a Jedi?”
“Yes.”
“No. Your hatred, your anger. You want to kill me. That is what I want. Kill me, and my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me. You will be Empress. We will be one.”
“All you want is for me to hate but I won’t. Not even you.”
“Weak. Your master, Luke Skywalker, was saved by his father. The only family you have here… is me.”

(Everything after this point would be unaltered Ascendant v4).

Over in the Starlight Project Addendum thread, we’ve been thinking over a version of the Rey/Kylo dialogue which aims to fix a number of things to maintain consistency across the trilogy. I thought I’d post the latest version here, to see what people thought. The big thing to resolve here is the conflict onscreen between the idea that Rey’s parents were nobodies whilst her dad was Palpatine’s son, by removing the latter and having Rey created the same way Vader was - by Palpatine ‘using the force to create life’ - so she’s a ‘Palpatine’ in spirit with nobody parents. We’re then building on that idea to smooth out other bits of plot and inconsistency, like Palpatine’s plans throughout the trilogy, the Luke/Kylo conflict, Leia rejecting the Jedi path, the Dyad, and Rey declaring herself Skywalker.

We’re trying to preserve this as natural dialogue that works as Kylo presenting what he’s learned from Palpatine in order to convince Rey to join Kylo to overthrow Palps, so that all the other onscreen performance and context can be preserved. We’re trying to strike the balance between being expository without going too deep into the mechanics of how this all works, or making weird implications, and leaving some of the interpretation up to the viewer so it doesn’t conflict with existing canon. It should be the kind of thing that works onscreen when you’re watching it, that then holds up when you think about it later and might then reveal more neat connections that ‘just work’.

This dialogue is from a few pertinent scenes - it should be clear which ones, and who’s talking.

“Palpatine wants me to fight you.”
“Serving another master?”
“No. I have other plans…”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it… I needed you to see it… who you are. The dark side is your birthright. Rey…”
"You’re lying.”
“You were right about your parents, Rey. They were nobody. And nobody conceived you.”
“Don’t!”
“You’re so much like my grandfather. So like Darth Vader…”
“I don’t want this!”
“…destined for power.”
“No!”
“You’ve seen it, haven’t you?”

(Rey sees the vision of herself on the Sith throne)

“Luke saw the same fate in me. But together, we can resist that fate.”
“Stop talking.”
“I’m the only one who truly knows you.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“When we first fought, in the forest, you reached out for the darkness inside you. You exposed yourself to Palpatine, and set yourself on the path toward your destiny… just as he’d intended…”

(Visions of Rey beating Kylo on Starkiller, falling into the dark cave, etc.)

“No!”

(A pedestal shatters and the mask of Vader falls to the ground)

“So that’s where you are.”
“Our paths have always been intertwined."
“No…”
"I’ll come tell you why.”

“Rey, I learned the rest of our story.”
“Tell me.”
"Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then you. Both were once his chosen heir. You… are a rightful Palpatine.”
"Now, the Emperor wants us to fight each other, so you can reach your full potential and claim the throne. But he doesn’t know how much our conflicts strengthen our connection, Rey… a bond, not of blood, but of raw power in the Force. We can end him and the Sith, and create a new order, together…”

“What are you most afraid of?”
“Myself…”
“Because you’re a Palpatine? His power runs in my bloodline too.”
“Final lesson. Rey… Some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t face Palpatine, will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost. There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

“Leia’s saber.”
“She was quick to learn in our training. But Leia felt that her passionate nature would make the easy path to power too tempting for her. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day it would be picked up again by someone with the spirit to face that darkness.”

“Long have I waited… I never wanted you dead. I wanted you here, Empress Palpatine. You will take the throne. It is your birthright to rule here. It is in your blood.”
“I haven’t come to lead the Sith. I’ve come to end them.”
“As a Jedi?”
“Yes.”
“No. Your hatred, your anger. You want to kill me. That is what I want. Kill me, and my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me. You will be Empress. We will be one.”
“All you want is for me to hate but I won’t. Not even you.”
“Weak. Your master, Luke Skywalker, was saved by his father. The only family you have here… is me.”

(Everything after this point would be unaltered Ascendant v4).

“She was quick to learn in our training. But Leia felt that her passionate nature would make the easy path to power too tempting for her. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day it would be picked up again by someone with the spirit to face that darkness.”

Maybe this aligns best with her characterisation as a little brash, sharp, quick to act on her passions? This way, she knows herself well enough to be wise about temptation, and preserves the idea that Jedi fight or seek power as a last resort (and normally train from a much younger age than this specifically to learn to manage that fear/anger/hate/suffering path), whilst keeping it as a smart decision she’s chosen to make. But here, ‘the easy path to power’ is a direct allusion to the dark side, as seen onscreen elsewhere, and implied in this dialogue as a part of the Vader bloodline.

The only other thing I still question is the reason for Kylo and Rey needing to fight. I agree that they need to, to solve some inconsistencies and to keep TFA/TLJ as part of Palpatine’s plans, but I think there’s an angle where we keep Rey as the intended heir and Kylo as the tool, but we can tie it into Kylo’s ‘other plans’ for his relationship with Palpatine and Rey too:

“Palpatine wants me to fight you.”
“Serving another master?”
“No. I have other plans…”

…

"Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then you. Both created to be his chosen heir. You… are a rightful Palpatine.”

"Now, the Emperor wants us to fight each other, so you can reach your full potential and can claim the throne. But he doesn’t know how much our conflicts strengthen our connection, Rey… a bond, not of blood, but of raw power in the Force. We can end him and the Sith, and create a new order, together…”

This way it’s all aligned with what we’ve seen onscreen, and with the idea that Palpatine’s behind Rey’s origins and also using Kylo to push her deeper into the dark, but he’s also inadvertently created and reinforced the Dyad bond, which Kylo believes makes them strong enough to challenge him. It also adds a little extra ‘meat’ to what Palpatine consumes from them when he’s suprised to see the bond - it’s a power that we can interpret as some mix of Palpatine’s ‘force influence’ and them amping each other up through their clashes. (We don’t need to get explicit about that, but it’s there as a possible read that works with what’s onscreen.) (And, very minor note, but it also adds a little further irony if we read that Snoke ‘bridging their minds’ helped forge the bond, since he was Palps’ puppet.)

I like the nod to sentinels, but it should remain an easter egg at best. Perhaps-

"She was quick to learn in our training. But Leia walked away from the temptations of power, and instead chose to serve the galaxy as her mother did. She surrendered her saber to me, and said it should be picked up again by someone with the spirit to stand sentinel against the darkness.”

I really like this. A few minor suggestions, with notes:

“…The dark side is your birthright. Rey…”
“You’re lying.”
“You were right about your parents, Rey. They were nobody. And nobody conceived you.”

This rewrite puts Kylo’s information further into the perspective of a continuation of the lines about her birthright. And I think it’s a little more elegant, if cryptic (though that’ll become clear in this conversation).

“Luke saw the same fate in me. But together we can resist that fate.”
“Stop talking.”
“I’m the only one who truly knows you.”

Slightly more elegant again, and maintains Kylo’s characterisation that he feels betrayed by Luke, and leads into his later “join me” line.

The only other thing I’m not quite sure about is Leia. I think we want to keep her in as high esteem as possible, even though she did reject the path. She shouldn’t doubt her own ability to resist the dark too much- but another of her positive character traits has been her pragmatism.

“She was quick to learn in our training. But Leia knew that she could do so much good without needing to tempt the dark within. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day it would be picked up again by someone with the spirit to face that darkness.”

Not quite sure about the wording here, but open to iteration on this idea.

Exposed works. I like where we’re currently at.

Had quite a few downloads so far - does anyone who’s watched the new versions have any feedback yet?

Maybe we can have it both ways:

“When we first fought, in the forest, you reached out for the darkness inside you. You revealed yourself to Palpatine, and set yourself on the path toward your destiny… just as he’d intended.”

I tried to keep that a bit more ambiguous- I’m trying to convey that Palpatine wanted conflict to lead her down the dark path, not specifically the events of starkiller.

Ah, OK, if the Dyad is mentioned later that’s grand, it doesn’t need to come up here. As for the inconsistency of what Palpatine wants Kylo to do, I agree that it’s a mess that needs a bit of fixing. I prefer the angle of “Palpatine wants me to fight you”, because then we can use this idea that the challenges are driving her towards the dark, rather than keeping Kylo as Rey’s equal in destiny for so long. I’d rather that he’s the tool to bring on her darkness - I think that fits better with how we’ve seen him manipulated and used onscreen, both by Snoke and Palps.

What do you think about "Imbued with his power, you… are a rightful Palpatine.”? I think it’s right to say she’s got some Palpy darkness but leave it ambiguous exactly how- so it can be headcanoned in a couple of ways without explicitly introducing something too new.

I like where this is going so far. I especially like how we’ve dropped any further revelations about her parents altogether - it avoids having to deal with the inconsistency and her parents backstory is implicit enough. (Minor thought: In TFA Rey says her backstory is a “big secret”. Maybe she’s always had a feeling that something was off about her parentage?)

On JJB’s most recent script, from the last page, I wonder if saying Rey is “destined for power” is a little more subtle at that point in the dialogue than “destined to rule”. That leaves the implication a bit more open to interpretation- including Palpatine’s.

I don’t know if we need the angle about the Force Awakening being a specific event in the forest, and more so that it brought her to Palpatine’s attention, but I don’t think it’s necessarily an issue. I’m just wondering if we might use that for a slightly different revelation or clarification of some of the events of the earlier two movies.

Similarly, I don’t know if we need Palpatine to have wanted them to fight to see who’s best, though again I don’t massively object, and I appreciate that it explains some of the other inconsistencies. As a possible alternative I’d consider something along the lines of Palpatine using Kylo (via his puppet Snoke) as a way to force the darkness to awaken (further) within her, the idea that her passions in traumatic situations would make her delve deeper into the dark side abd make her a more viable host/heir.

I’d also like to keep the Dyad, just because it’s now a concept that the canon is likely to reference again.

Spitballing:

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“Palpatine knew your power would awaken eventually. When we first fought, in the forest, you reached out for the darkness inside you, setting you on the path toward your destiny… just as he’d intended.”

(Visions of Rey beating Kylo on Starkiller, falling into the dark cave, etc.)

…

“Rey, I know the rest of our story.”

“Tell me.”

"Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then you. Imbued with his power, you… are a rightful Palpatine.”

"Now, the Emperor wants your darkness to consume you, so you can claim the throne as his heir. But what he doesn’t know is we’ve become a Dyad in the Force. Bound by the raw power of our blood. We can end him and the Sith, and create a new order, together…”

I think this all strikes a nice balance between exposition and natural and relevant dialogue, whilst keeping enough vague or open to interpretation that we aren’t pinning ourselves down.

Yeah, I think the comparison is unavoidable, but JJB, those points make it about as distinct as it can be without us changing the canon.

I think we’re losing some elegance lately. We don’t have to explain the HOW of a lot of this stuff, since ‘force magic’ covers a lot. Dialogue needs to be snappy, relevant to Rey’s struggles in the moment, and easily understandable- without referencing long-forgotten context (or context buried in non-movie content), and shouldn’t introduce anything new that doesn’t directly solve our one or two core problems.

I honestly feel like iteration of the dialogue for the core idea is all we need here, without tangents and wrinkles. This should be a single one-size-fits all fix, rather than exploring new interpretations of minor prior elements.